What skill should I take next?

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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby psy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:50 pm

meow wrote:perhaps but then why mention summon divines? that is also a tome.


I didn't actually read the list of skills. oops. :P
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby Deandra » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:20 am

salticid wrote:I sort of wish I could squeeze in spells for hardcore, but I cant decide. Spells can be so powerful, but they require the full set to really work. I think instead I will add a note in the spells section to say that going for the spell set early is not a bad idea. Certainly, the spell set can replace shieldbutt pretty easily.


Why not say "You need to find some way to kill monsters without plinking or you'll never be able to raise ML successfully. Pick a skill suite based on your personal preference, and then start perming the skills for whatever suite you pick. This order makes sense for the following suites:" and then have a list for shieldbutt, a list for sauceslinging, and a list of pastaslinging. Point out that the player can build these killing suites slowly as they're perming other utility skills. Also give players a list of pros and cons for each combat style. Shameless plug!

meow wrote:perhaps but then why mention summon divines? that is also a tome.

my point was more of either discuss the tomes, or link to where you discuss the tomes or not include tome skills. i actually have no clue which way to go.


It's a libram, but for the purposes of this guide that distinction is fairly meaningless. Neither requires an ascension to perm, so it's just a question of whether or not you want to spend the meat. Bookshelf skills should be ranked against each other, not against perms you get by ascending.


On another note, I totally disagree on Spirit of Ravioli being a "high priority" for noodlebutt. The flat +20 hp slime skill has a much bigger impact early on in the run, and later on your DA is what will keep you alive (assuming you have tao, which is a MUCH stronger perm than ravioli). Also I see people mention it as a basementing skill all the time, which is ridiculous since gauntlets and elemental tests should never be your bottleneck. If they are, you should be perming tao, not ravioli.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby Tobias » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:46 am

Deandra wrote:
meow wrote:my point was more of either discuss the tomes, or link to where you discuss the tomes or not include tome skills. i actually have no clue which way to go.

Neither requires an ascension to perm, so it's just a question of whether or not you want to spend the meat. Bookshelf skills should be ranked against each other, not against perms you get by ascending.

I think that's well said, Deandra. It's the matter of having meat vs. working towards something. I think that it still makes sense to have the skill on the list of "most cast" because that's simply showing what the collected data showed.

There certainly should be a place to discuss tomes and librams (and grimoires) but I imagine that's going to be part of a much grander "What the hell should I spend my meat on?!" section.


Deandra wrote:On another note, I totally disagree on Spirit of Ravioli being a "high priority" for noodlebutt. The flat +20 hp slime skill has a much bigger impact early on in the run, and later on your DA is what will keep you alive (assuming you have tao, which is a MUCH stronger perm than ravioli). Also I see people mention it as a basementing skill all the time, which is ridiculous since gauntlets and elemental tests should never be your bottleneck. If they are, you should be perming tao, not ravioli.

I also agree here -- it's the early HP that really make a difference. Having that bonus % of HP just isn't spectacular while the Slime skill certainly *is* spectacular. The main difference, I guess, is the amount of work that the slime skill takes to get up to +20 HP.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby meow » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:53 am

Yes I stand corrected. It is a libram not a tome. I meant it more as in a bookshelf skill.

There is a fundamental difference between bookshelf skills and other skills -- mainly bookshelf skills do not cost adventures to perm -- and hence i think they should be discussed separately.

All i am trying to say is that it is possible that someone would take a look at the list as is and say hey out of all the bookshelves thingies, divines gets cast very often and ti is the only one that made the list. So with my last X mil meat I should get that one. And I am not sure that is the right choice (although i may be wrong).
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby salticid » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:27 pm

Fixed a bunch of things based on suggestions - I think I agreed with everything said. I still need to write some bits, but I prefer the way I have combats skills discussed now. It does not overlap too much with the new wiki page, which I would prefer to avoid.

There is a separate section on bookshelf stuff, which I consider completely different because they perm immediately. I added a note about why non-permeable skill casts show up in that section though. I like showing them, but I do not want it to look confusing. Stuff like talon-slash is also on the list.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby Deandra » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:34 pm

salticid wrote:All of these methods of combat, as well as some others, are described on the Combat Style wiki page written by Deandra and ROttingFLesh.


Actually, RF spent the whole time we were writing that page being banned from the wiki, so it was mostly written by RT and me, with help from Kirkpatrick and Stupac2. :lol:
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby meow » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:33 pm

HC side

Disco power Nap it tier 3? instead of lovely fusilli which helps me get to high level quickly on day 1 to eat less sucky foods and drink less sucky drinka and use my spleenies well?

even astral and confrontation are better than nap imho
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby Deandra » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:56 am

meow wrote:HC side

Disco power Nap it tier 3? instead of lovely fusilli which helps me get to high level quickly on day 1 to eat less sucky foods and drink less sucky drinka and use my spleenies well?

even astral and confrontation are better than nap imho


Power nap was my first healing skill perm, and I think I made the right choice. I usually recommend it to players who don't have a healing skill yet and don't know which one to pick, particularly if they have a VIP key and Spencer's. The free rests are great, and it's nice and efficient and predictable, and for most people who don't have a whole lot of perms, doing a DB run is a lot faster than going SC for tongue or PM for cocoon. It's better than cocoon early on in a run, when lower-skilled players are short on resources. If you don't have a lot of buffs to spend your meat on, the later parts of a run you'll have more than enough MP to cast power nap instead of cocoon, anyway, even though it's less efficient. Sure, tongue is great, but you don't get free rests and you've got to do a SC run for it.

If you already have a healing skill, the utility of other healing skills gets greatly diminished, though, so you can't really rank them against other possible perms and then say that's the order you should perm them in. Eg if you rank tongue and power nap as #15 and #16 you should absolutely not pick them as your 15th and 16th perms.

That said, I think springy could also stand to be moved up, since springy + overdeveloped will let you get the jump in the sewers, while overdeveloped + slime skill will not.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby meow » Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:28 pm

i don't dispute that power nap may have been good early on. But now you have VIP clan room free healing. Now with beaten up removed.

for this reason for me fusilli >> disco nap. which is why i am getting one this cursed stab bat run.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby DiscoNeckTed » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:05 pm

Are you going to slot the new TravTrad AT skill?
Last edited by DiscoNeckTed on Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby salticid » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:53 pm

Inigo's Incantation is badass. In hardcore, it requires a lot of other skills to be used early, but it still saves a lot of turn in the late game for new players. I think it is less amazing for softcore, but does save at least 1 pull and a few turns. So here is what I am thinking:

Inigo's Incantation - Tier 2 (HC)
Inigo's Incantation - Tier 3 (SC)
Shieldbutt - drops to Tier 3 (HC)
Powers of Observatogn - drops to Tier 4 (SC & HC)

I considered your suggestion that Springy should go up a tier D, and I just cannot find a skill that I think deserves to go down if Springy goes up. Ultimately, players will have to figure out what they want to take based on what their goals are. If you do not care about early sewer leveling, Springy is not that helpful, especially for lazy players who do not cast buffs that often. If a player does want to do the sewers, they will read down the page about combat strategy and it should be clear to them the Springy is a skill worth getting soon.
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby weas » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:17 pm

My opinion on Inigo's for softcore is near the top of Tier III (I know they are unordered), probably just after Phat Loot and Ur-kels.
"Whether or not what they said was right, it was the fact that they were arguing against me" -- Sheik on friendship
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Re: 6. What skill should I take next?

Postby jcowley » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:50 pm

Powers of observatiogn is listed in tier 3 and tier 4.

EDIT: In HC.
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Re: What skill should I take next?

Postby TheDownstairsFrank » Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:19 pm

This trick about smashing flaming crotches or other hot items in the friars to level up a bander? What skill do you need for that?

I honestly don't know if they smash into nuggets or powders ( resistance or elemental attack) but either way the idea is delaying combat by taking one damage or giving one damage but to what end? I guess i could just look up the skills that give + exp with a bander but I think it's more fun to comment on this thread...

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Re: What skill should I take next?

Postby Tar » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:38 pm

Kujjie explains it better than I could: http://alliancefromhell.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374

Scroll down to "Bandersnatch Spellslinging Explained"
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